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excess serotonin

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76 Re: excess serotonin on Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:49 am

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Farshad wrote:I remember when I took 5-htp 500mg... Oh my god I felt sick... my stomach .. dizzy... sweating... this was before I found out serotonin was my problem. the typical dosages are 300mg-500mg according to Examine.. So why did I feel sick when I took that normal dosage? All I could do was be in my bed and wait it out I couldnt eat and it lasted like 3 days the bad feeling I got from 5-htp.

I threw the 5-htp away first day I got it and since then I know I dont have low serotonin and many other occurences has happend after I took 5-htp that has lead me to belive I have high serotonin. I have high hopes In Increasing SERT.
Whenever I've taken 5-HTP it just made me unreasonably angry.

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77 Re: excess serotonin on Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:27 pm

Farshad


rs1049353 TT = The T allele of rs1049353 may cause lower receptor numbers and less activation. With this variation, the receptors also don't become significantly less sensitive when activated - i.e. you don't build up tolerance.

wonder what this mean, less sert?

78 Re: excess serotonin on Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:36 am

Caravaggio


What does your 23andme ancestry report tell, are you more Asian or Caucasian (European)?

It probably says Middle Eastern & North African. lol

This study says:

Caucasians + short allele = higher anxiety and depression
Asians + long allele = higher anxiety and depression

PubMed ID: 23319313

I'm also just starting to look into SNPs, genes, alleles etc. and how they work.

rs2020934 AA
rs11867581 AA

If you go to selfdecode and look at the pie charts you will see that AA is the major allele for East Asians. So if you're Asian there shouldn't be a problem at all.

For rs11867581 it says:

"The A (minor) allele is associated with:

Short allele= lower transporter, higher 5HT."

If you are Asian then that wouldn't even apply to you because A is major in Asians.

If you're african on the other hand then the quoted sentence above would apply to you because it's very rare in Africans.

79 Re: excess serotonin on Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:23 am

Farshad


East Asian & Native American
< 0.1%

Middle Eastern
99.9%

Broadly Middle Eastern & North African
< 0.1%

Long means less serotonin right? and short means more serotonin in the synapse? Im caucasian.

rs2020934 AA
rs11867581 AA

thats what I got when I ran my data trough selfdecode.

I still dont get that part. People say its only possible to have 2 short or long  but mine says 4? or does AA just count as 1?

how is it not 4 ?
rs2020934 is found on chromosome 17 and linked to the gene SERT. The major allele (G) is observed in 51% of the general population. The minor allele (A) is observed in 49%. Your genotype is AA, which is observed in 30% of all individuals reported.
rs11867581 is found on chromosome 17 and linked to the gene SERT. The major allele (G) is observed in 52% of the general population. The minor allele (A) is observed in 48%. Your genotype is AA, which is observed in 31% of all individuals reported.
AAAA = 4 ? = 4 Short 5-httlpr?

nervermind i got my answer on reddit

..The SNPs you are referencing are just "proxies" for the 5-HTTLPR allele that is close to them. They are like a sign telling you what is close by; you can have multiple signs all pointing to the same thing...

80 Re: excess serotonin on Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:31 am

Farshad


So my Problem is Sensetive serotonin receptors + low SERT?
So with 2 short 5-httplr and having Low sert which makes it even more serotonin activating receptors. so more serotonin build up in synapse and more activation of serotonin receptors who are sensetive and dont get desensitised? would that make sense?

rs1049353 TT = The T allele of rs1049353 may cause lower receptor numbers and less activation. With this variation, the receptors also don't become significantly less sensitive when activated - i.e. you don't build up tolerance.
https://www.selfdecode.com/snp/rs1049353/

81 Re: excess serotonin on Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:42 pm

Caravaggio


You could try supplements that will raise TGF-beta.

TGF-beta will cause SERT upregulation.

PubMed ID: 25954931

There's an article on selfhacked how to lower or raise TGF-beta.

Fluoxetine also seems to upregulate SERT (it's also used in DOK7 Congenital Myasthenic Syndrome).

PubMed ID: 24480874

82 Re: excess serotonin on Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:15 pm

Farshad


Progesterone seems to increase TGF-beta according to selfhacked.
Progesterone also increases MAO.
now if Progesterone would do something to the serotonin receptors like block or decrease their activity this would be the perfect cure for me.

Progesterone (R, R2, R3) – increased TGF in epithelial cells…which are all over the body…

good progesterone read

https://journal.thriveglobal.com/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know-about-natural-progesterone-892926ea9c84

83 Re: excess serotonin on Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:23 am

Farshad


whats the half life of forskolin and bacopa? maybe it would be better to combine them if their half life are longer than berberine + evodiamine? or are they not potent enough?

84 Re: excess serotonin on Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:58 am

Farshad


so I have tried metergoline and Cyproheptadine  neither worked at all and these 2 are supposed to be potent at blocking serotonin receptors... But Zyprexa which is an anti-pshyotic that blocks quite a few serotonin receptors worked.. So whats up with that? If Zyprexa hadnt worked I would have noted that serotonin receptors arent my problem and the only possible scenario left would have been that my SERT is extremly low.

85 Re: excess serotonin on Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:06 am

kpavel

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that only mean that olanzapine touches @deeper@ structures of a cell, not listed in wiki probably, but I should warn you it's a potentially harmful drug, and tgf-beta isn't fun actually if you noticed, so yeah, sert is a better chance cause studies show correlation with anxiety very well, better than for most other proteins Very Happy

86 Re: excess serotonin on Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:29 am

Farshad


kpavel wrote:that only mean that olanzapine touches @deeper@ structures of a cell, not listed in wiki probably, but I should warn you it's a potentially harmful drug, and tgf-beta isn't fun actually if you noticed, so yeah, sert is a better chance cause studies show correlation with anxiety very well, better than for most other proteins Very Happy
one study says  zyprexa increases Progesterone.. maybe thats why  it worked no idea

but I finaly have some money now so I can order the stuff will probably have them by next week.

will order Evodiamine ( Wu Zhu Yu ) + berberine  
forskolin + bacopa
and progesterone

im very intrested in SERT but If the genetic testing is correct I also have sensetive serotonin receptors with low sert so I will have to take care of that too somehow..
Not many Meds increase SERT so this could very well work for me..

87 Re: excess serotonin on Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:40 am

Farshad


how would you fix sensetive serotonin receptors? only meds I know of are antipsychotics that block serotonin receptors. or will increasing SERT be enough to balance the serotonin receptors?

88 Re: excess serotonin on Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:55 am

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Farshad wrote:how would you fix sensetive serotonin receptors? only meds I know of are antipsychotics that block serotonin receptors. or will increasing SERT be enough to balance the serotonin receptors?

Well if you have a "short" or "short-short" transporter gene then that essentially means the transporter in YOUR Brain/Body is dysfunctional. Its a lot like a "deletion" in some ways. The protein doesn't function as it would in a "normal" person so you retain more Serotonin in the synapse.

This being regardless of any other factors; dietary or otherwise.

SERT activators may help short-term but it will be a difficult ride and very complicated.

Even in this case, your success with Zyprexa tells me that we can find a way to do it with the receptors. It may be that Zyprexa (Olanzapine) is blocking a receptor the others don't touch as much - maybe 5-HT6 or 5-HT7?

Those receptors are coupled to adenylyl cyclase which boosts cAMP levels inside the cell. Its possible you have too much cAMP; which is causing a consistent "simulated stress response".

~Jay

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89 Re: excess serotonin on Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:32 pm

Farshad


Area-1255 wrote:
Farshad wrote:how would you fix sensetive serotonin receptors? only meds I know of are antipsychotics that block serotonin receptors. or will increasing SERT be enough to balance the serotonin receptors?

Well if you have a "short" or "short-short" transporter gene then that essentially means the transporter in YOUR Brain/Body is dysfunctional. Its a lot like a "deletion" in some ways. The protein doesn't function as it would in a "normal" person so you retain more Serotonin in the synapse.

This being regardless of any other factors; dietary or otherwise.

SERT activators may help short-term but it will be a difficult ride and very complicated.

Even in this case, your success with Zyprexa tells me that we can find a way to do it with the receptors. It may be that Zyprexa (Olanzapine) is blocking a receptor the others don't touch as much - maybe 5-HT6 or 5-HT7?

Those receptors are coupled to adenylyl cyclase which boosts cAMP levels inside the cell. Its possible you have too much cAMP; which is causing a consistent "simulated stress response".

~Jay

why cant I take berberine+ evodiamine long term? If it works im assuming its more potent than bacopa and forskilin in activating SERT so if berberine and evodiamine works my plan is to keep taking it for the rest of my life.. its not like I got a choice. Thers no other alternatives out there for me.  take 3 times a day to get a stable blood levels because the half life is short thats what I was gonna do   next week . And in turn this would decrease my serotonin levels dramatically I hope. You saw the study it increased the serotonin transporter  significantly across the various alleles.

And this would lead to less serotonin receptor activity or whatever you wanna call it so less 5-ht7 , 5ht6 etc expression and less stress.

what happens if you have too much Serotonin in the synapse? Does that mean more serotonin receptor activation ? one study said decreased sert expression leads to overactive amygdala and more prone to fear learning or something. Im guessing its the serotonin in the synapse causing it?

Also according to the site I used to see my genetic mutations it said my MAO was normal. Dopamine Normal. Only things wrong with the serotonin related stuff.

Lets say Increasing sert doesent work. What does that leave me? Just sensetive serotonin receptors? and if that doesent work? Im doomed ?

90 Re: excess serotonin on Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:02 pm

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Farshad wrote:
Lets say Increasing sert doesent work. What does that leave me? Just sensetive serotonin receptors? and if that doesent work? Im doomed ?

Try it first. Give it time to work (at least 3 weeks, preferably a month or two). No, you are not doomed if it doesn't work. We'd just have to try other options.

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91 Re: excess serotonin on Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:20 pm

Farshad


ok and I dont know if I have told you but I have tried Nardil the potent MAO inhibitor Med.
didnt work at all just side effects. But that tells me if it didnt work I must have a slow MAO (warrior gene) but the genetic site I used said my mao was normal.
just thought I would mention this.

92 Re: excess serotonin on Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:28 pm

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Farshad wrote:ok and I dont know if I have told you but I have tried Nardil the potent MAO inhibitor Med.
didnt work at all just side effects. But that tells me if it didnt work I must  have a slow MAO (warrior gene) but the genetic site I used  said my mao was normal.
just thought I would mention this.

Well MAO-A deaminates/degrades ALL "monoamines"...that includes Serotonin. So if you have high Serotonin, an MAO-A inhibitor like Nardil will likely just make it worse.

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93 Re: excess serotonin on Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:39 pm

Farshad


Area-1255 wrote:
Farshad wrote:ok and I dont know if I have told you but I have tried Nardil the potent MAO inhibitor Med.
didnt work at all just side effects. But that tells me if it didnt work I must  have a slow MAO (warrior gene) but the genetic site I used  said my mao was normal.
just thought I would mention this.

Well MAO-A deaminates/degrades ALL "monoamines"...that includes Serotonin. So if you have high Serotonin, an MAO-A inhibitor like Nardil will likely just make it worse.
yeah I know I was just saying that it  proves  that I already have an slow MAO because nardil didnt do anything for me. But at that time when I took Nardil I had no idea about MAO.. or these kind of technical stuff I just heard nardil was the gold standard for social anxiety so I decided to try it.

(edit) 50 posts

94 Re: excess serotonin on Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:20 pm

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Farshad wrote:
Area-1255 wrote:
Farshad wrote:ok and I dont know if I have told you but I have tried Nardil the potent MAO inhibitor Med.
didnt work at all just side effects. But that tells me if it didnt work I must  have a slow MAO (warrior gene) but the genetic site I used  said my mao was normal.
just thought I would mention this.

Well MAO-A deaminates/degrades ALL "monoamines"...that includes Serotonin. So if you have high Serotonin, an MAO-A inhibitor like Nardil will likely just make it worse.
yeah I know I was just saying that it  proves  that I already have an slow MAO because nardil didnt do anything for me. But at that time when I took Nardil I had no idea about MAO.. or these kind of technical stuff I just heard nardil was the gold standard for social anxiety so I decided to try it.

(edit) 50 posts

Well I guess it depends where you live. Over here in the USA we don't use MAO-inhibitors for Social Anxiety (typically). Here its SSRI and Benzodiazepines and sometimes other mixed drugs like Gabapentin or Viibryd.

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95 Re: excess serotonin on Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:34 am

Farshad


so what other options are there? and are there supplements that make the serotonin receptors less sensetive?

96 Re: excess serotonin on Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:41 am

Caravaggio


Maybe your problem is not neurotransmitters but hormones, that's probaly why the dozens of antidepressants don't work.

Somewhere you mentioned you have high estrogen and estrogen slows down COMT/MAO (additional to low genetic COMT/MAO).

Here's an interesting article about the estrogen/MAO relationship.

http://www.beyondmthfr.com/treating-comt-and-mao-the-hormonal-cause-of-stress-and-anxiety/

97 Re: excess serotonin on Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:59 am

Farshad


Caravaggio wrote:Maybe your problem is not neurotransmitters but hormones, that's probaly why the dozens of antidepressants don't work.

Somewhere you mentioned you have high estrogen and estrogen slows down COMT/MAO (additional to low genetic COMT/MAO).

Here's an interesting article about the estrogen/MAO relationship.

http://www.beyondmthfr.com/treating-comt-and-mao-the-hormonal-cause-of-stress-and-anxiety/

yeah thats why I wanna try progesterone if increasing sert doesent work. But im pretty sure its not hormonal well I do have hormone problems but thats due to my serotonin mutations which caused abnormal stress and other stuff. I read that fast SERT means Less stress and if you have mutations which make your sert low you will have more anxiety. Im not too worried about having a Slow MAO-a i dont think  thats causing my anxiety I think its more related to slow SERT and sensetive serotonin receptors. And I could have some mutation which makes me have 4 short serotonin 5-htpplr but people say its only possible to have 2 short or 2 long... But  Icould have some rare mutation ...  anyhow even if I do have 4 short my best bet is to increase SERT expression theres no other way that I know of to fix something like this.

Progesterone increases MAO and comt and balances estrogen.

good read(s?) unrelated but about progesterone
https://neuroendoimmune.wordpress.com/2013/11/21/progesterone-and-the-neurotransmitters-the-under-recognized-relationship/

https://journal.thriveglobal.com/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know-about-natural-progesterone-892926ea9c84

98 Re: excess serotonin on Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:36 am

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Farshad wrote:
Caravaggio wrote:Maybe your problem is not neurotransmitters but hormones, that's probaly why the dozens of antidepressants don't work.

Somewhere you mentioned you have high estrogen and estrogen slows down COMT/MAO (additional to low genetic COMT/MAO).

Here's an interesting article about the estrogen/MAO relationship.

http://www.beyondmthfr.com/treating-comt-and-mao-the-hormonal-cause-of-stress-and-anxiety/

yeah thats why I wanna try progesterone if increasing sert doesent work. But im pretty sure its not hormonal well I do have hormone problems but thats due to my serotonin mutations which caused abnormal stress and other stuff. I read that fast SERT means Less stress and if you have mutations which make your sert low you will have more anxiety. Im not too worried about having a Slow MAO-a i dont think  thats causing my anxiety I think its more related to slow SERT and sensetive serotonin receptors. And I could have some mutation which makes me have 4 short serotonin 5-htpplr but people say its only possible to have 2 short or 2 long... But  Icould have some rare mutation ...  anyhow even if I do have 4 short my best bet is to increase SERT expression theres no other way that I know of to fix something like this.

Progesterone increases MAO and comt and balances estrogen.

good read(s?) unrelated but about progesterone
https://neuroendoimmune.wordpress.com/2013/11/21/progesterone-and-the-neurotransmitters-the-under-recognized-relationship/

https://journal.thriveglobal.com/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know-about-natural-progesterone-892926ea9c84

Progesterone also lowers DHT:
Inhibition of testosterone conversion to dihydrotestosterone in men treated percutaneously by progesterone.

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99 Re: excess serotonin on Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:43 am

Farshad


Area-1255 wrote:
Farshad wrote:
Caravaggio wrote:Maybe your problem is not neurotransmitters but hormones, that's probaly why the dozens of antidepressants don't work.

Somewhere you mentioned you have high estrogen and estrogen slows down COMT/MAO (additional to low genetic COMT/MAO).

Here's an interesting article about the estrogen/MAO relationship.

http://www.beyondmthfr.com/treating-comt-and-mao-the-hormonal-cause-of-stress-and-anxiety/

yeah thats why I wanna try progesterone if increasing sert doesent work. But im pretty sure its not hormonal well I do have hormone problems but thats due to my serotonin mutations which caused abnormal stress and other stuff. I read that fast SERT means Less stress and if you have mutations which make your sert low you will have more anxiety. Im not too worried about having a Slow MAO-a i dont think  thats causing my anxiety I think its more related to slow SERT and sensetive serotonin receptors. And I could have some mutation which makes me have 4 short serotonin 5-htpplr but people say its only possible to have 2 short or 2 long... But  Icould have some rare mutation ...  anyhow even if I do have 4 short my best bet is to increase SERT expression theres no other way that I know of to fix something like this.

Progesterone increases MAO and comt and balances estrogen.

good read(s?) unrelated but about progesterone
https://neuroendoimmune.wordpress.com/2013/11/21/progesterone-and-the-neurotransmitters-the-under-recognized-relationship/

https://journal.thriveglobal.com/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know-about-natural-progesterone-892926ea9c84

Progesterone also lowers DHT:
Inhibition of testosterone conversion to dihydrotestosterone in men treated percutaneously by progesterone.
isnt dht that hormone that  makes you bald or something?
I was under the impression progesterone increased good? testosterone. Im not even gonna pretend like I know what im talking about but I came across this thread  .
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/progesterone-is-androgenic.21164/

if its true im willing to overlook that.

(edit) question

are sensetive serotonin receptors common and is it as bad as low sert in terms of what it can do to you or is it not noticeable unless you have low SERT + sensetive receptors?



Last edited by Farshad on Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

100 Re: excess serotonin on Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:01 am

Area-1255

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Farshad wrote:

But im willing to overlook that.

You definitely have high Anxiety, Farshad, you've been sitting on this page all day waiting for a response. I realize you have genetic traits that make for this to happen. Still, I think you should try Meditation and / or see a Counselor for personal advice.

Once you try the SERT-activators, let me know how it goes. It won't hurt to try some anxiolytics, maybe something like Magnolia bark for Anxiety can still be added.

GABA-A activators decrease serotonin release : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/5064914

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